David & Susan: Revolutionizing Developmental Disability Services, Rights and Visibility

Meet David and Susan, who have decades of experience between then leading LADD, one of the most innovative and revolutionary disability services organizations in the USA.  

How do you move from institutions and segregation to true community inclusion?

In this special episode of Never Fade Away, host Kate Siahaan-Rigg interviews former LADD Executive Director David Robinson and current CEO Susan Brownknight about the philosophy, innovations, and hard-fought battles that transformed disability services in Ohio and beyond.

David shares how he spent 24 years challenging traditional assumptions about disability, fighting for community integration, independent living, home ownership, and opportunities that many people once believed were impossible for adults with developmental disabilities.

Susan reflects on how those principles continue to guide LADD today through groundbreaking Smart Living Systems, AI-assisted supports, and new housing models designed to maximize both safety and independence.

Together, they explore:

• The closure of institutions and the rise of community living
• Why "dignity of risk" matters
• The challenges families face in balancing safety and independence
• How technology is transforming disability supports
• What the next 50 years of disability services may look like

This conversation is both an oral history and a roadmap for the future.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

The attitude towards people with developmental disabilities has so dramatically evolved. But David, in my opinion, based on all of the other folks I met in the field, was at the absolute forefront.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Somehow, I convinced Board we needed to develop a program that helped people with disabilities own their own home if they wanted to. When we began this discussion, talked about the basketball net. Let's put a basketball court up in the parking lot. And my reaction to that is we have a gym a half a block away. Why do we need a basketball net here when people can go down there?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

And I believe that was the exact sentence he uttered to me, and no more. And then I just walked out of his office. We don't know anything about technology. We backed into it because there was a need, and we were driven by this belief of community integration and the dignity of risk. It was about the people, it has always been about the people.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Hey, hey, I've got a story for you. Right here today, a history too. Never fade away. Never fade away.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

This is Never Fade Away, an oral history project centering untold stories by and about people with developmental disabilities in Ohio. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the storytellers and not necessarily endorsed or representative of the producers. I am your Neurospicy host, Kate Siaha'an Rig, and this podcast is brought to you by LAD, a Cincinnati-based organization grounded in the belief that all people have ability and value. LAD empowers adults with developmental disabilities to live, work, and connect. Here are some of their stories. Now, as you probably have gathered, LAD is the producer of this podcast and one of the country's most impactful organizations serving people with developmental disabilities. 2025 was their 50th anniversary, and actually part of the reason we even came up with this podcast idea. And you can actually hear more about the founding of LAD from episode one, where I interviewed Sis Geyer and her brothers. They are the children of Peggy Geyer, who, along with other influential community members, created LAD essentially, so that Sis would have a safe place where she could be in community and thrive. Now, in this episode, David looks back on the way his philosophy of community integration and inclusion shaped his 24 years of leadership at Ladd. And then now Susan gives us a glimpse into the future of disability services through the lens of technology and cultural inclusion. This is a longer episode than usual because we cover so many of the principles that made LAD a thought leader and award-winning innovator in serving people with disabilities with empathy, creativity, and joy. Okay, so first of all, Susan and David, welcome to Never Fade Away. And I'm so excited that you guys are here today because uh both of you have served as executive directors as LAD. Actually, Susan, you are currently the executive director of LAD. Uh David, can you tell us a little bit about the organization, what it was like when you joined, and what the ethos was then?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah, um that was back in 1992. Um I came into an organization that um basically recently lost a lot of leadership in Peggy Geyer. So it was still essentially an organization that was managed and operated through the board versus staff. And I saw that as very intriguing because I had come from an agency where the president, the chairman of the board kind of directed the agency. It was all from that position down, and it was a disaster.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

What were the existing like functions, actions, roles of Ladd at that time in 1992?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Um they had Victory Parkway, was the main operation, and they have Find Away and Gaia, the two apartment buildings, and people would come into Victory Parkway, and for an example, there was a hard and fast rule that people would stay here two years.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Was Victory Parkway and and Find Away and what was the other one?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Uh Geyer.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

Right. And were that were those all residential facilities or were they doing different things?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

The different no, they were residential. All of them. Okay. They were all all three of them were facility-based, right? Very few activities that were what I refer to as community-based.

unknown 5:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

So and they had just started, the state had just started a supported living program where they were integrating people with disabilities into the community more, but it wasn't really developed to a high degree across the state of Ohio. So that was coming and evolving at the same time. So everybody came into Victory Parkway. If they wanted to live in the community, particularly find a way in Gaia, they had to go through Victory Parkway.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I see.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Within that two-year period, they either became self-sufficient to a large degree, or they were discharged.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

What sort of things was Ladd doing?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

They were essentially helping them navigate the community, transportation. Um they didn't do a lot of uh finding employment for people at that time. They were just helping people live in the community as best they could.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Was it like through workshops or one-on-one things or seminars, or how did how did you achieve that?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Basically, it was through people moving from victory to find a way in Gire, and then some people in scattered apartments, very few though, at that time, because the dollars didn't necessarily follow the person, and that's what the Ohio supported living development allowed to happen more frequently, is to follow funding so that people could be supported in an apartment if necessary. And while the people were living in the community, LAD staff would drop by and support them, like if they needed assistance, getting ready for to go out in the community in the morning, whether they were going to a workshop or whether they were going, some people were employed uh, or going to a day activity center. Staff would help them get ready for that, then they'd go out and then maybe come back later in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

So that's what was going on when you got there. And actually, it's so funny. I'm looking at you, Susan, and I'm like, you so David was the executive director for 24 years. You what year did you take over, Susan? 2016. 2016. So I'm looking at you and I'm like, I feel like Susan should interview David a little bit about his time there. One question I want to ask is uh about um your sort of overall philosophy, David, about disability service, how that came into play and how it how it how it evolved in the time that you were there.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah. Um well that was a lot of it started when I was at the other nonprofit for 11 years that I worked at, because we received a lot of training in approaching it from the perspective of these people with disabilities, the community really didn't want to see them or be aware of them. And this philosophy kind of forced the issue because the community didn't value these folks as individuals, services were harder to be provided. And so the that training that I received over probably the last four to five years when I was at the organization created the foundation where when I came to LAD I used to build and uh work with people with disabilities, which was a community-based model. So you took you you tried to get people involved in the community both socially, through work, through uh any education possibly they might need or training, and try to use existing community services just like you would use for anybody else.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Can you think of some examples of of how you were able to um like shoehorn people into those community services?

SPEAKER_02 9:38

When I came to Ladd on my very first day, this is what David um imparted uh on me and then consistently reinforced as um I worked for him. So, from the idea that you can create this bubble, this safe bubble for people, and that everything is in that bubble, is in some ways it's it's a it's a babysitting model, right? It's we are taking care of people, and and from day one, David said, You we are not babysitters, we are serving adults and we are teachers. We support people in learning how to be in the community and the way that played out. So, for example, I said, you know, we're trying to get people more active. Um could we use some money? The folks want some money for uh basketball net um and uh or basketball hoop, excuse me. And you were like, there's a basketball court in the community, people need to be in the community. That's so what about let's put this amenity? There's that in the community. Folks need to be in the community. So I would say you probably got asked a question of that nature once a month, easily. Um, what about this, David? I mean, I'm gonna say it was a very different time, too. The the attitude towards people with developmental disabilities has so dramatically evolved. Um, it's still, but um, David, in my opinion, based on all of the other folks I met in the field, was at the absolute forefront of um this thinking and putting it into action. So um I drank the David Robinson Kool-Aid. No, it's not my cool and then over time I realized that he he was a purist. Like he had executed so much better than so many other folks. Um, and in doing that, he also fought some battles that were controversial.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Well, let's talk about those battles, those controversial battles. I'd like to hear about those.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

So he he took he took the county to task.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Well, most importantly, I took the board to task because they were you know embracing this model of essentially segregation.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

And babysitting, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

The philosophy of LAD was to make people independent, which was a falsehood to begin with. Um, and we don't you don't make people independent, you increase their independence, and there's a big difference. And the people that we serve maybe, and most of them are more dependent on others for their support in the community, but to the extent they can be independent, you want to allow that to happen and to recognize that. And and that's a subtle perspective to have, particularly if you're a board member and not in the profession.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

There's a lot of protective type of behavior going on, particularly from families, that yeah, uh they would say I want my child to be more into my adult child to be more independent, but when it came to actually purring, then you know what if something happens to them while they're riding the bus? Well, we deal with it. You know, and at the time, um you know, they they had just developed uh Gyer, I think in 90, 91.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Geyer is the apartment building, right? Just for the people that don't know, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

That was their second, that was their second 40-unit apartment building.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

That was okay, but yet all those 40 units were occupied by people with disabilities. So there was no contact, very limited con. It was in the community, but it was a 40-unit apartment building. Oh, that's the building for people with disabilities. That's where you that's where you go.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

What did you what did you do instead of continuing to develop things like that?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Well, at the previous, we had a foster program at the previous agency that I started where we would contact people living in the community to allow someone to live with them with a disability and serve them one-on-one and just try to look at different ways to provide service to people and find them apartments in existing apartment buildings where typical people live. You know, when you start thinking that way, then you have to start looking at other resources. We developed was a relationship with the housing authority here in uh Cincinnati, where there were housing assistance dollars available through HUD that people were eligible for because of their income level, not necessarily because of their disability, and helping the housing authority recognize that these folks with disabilities will provide the support if you can provide the resources where they can afford an apartment in a typical apartment building. So our staff provided that structure so that when somebody's housing voucher, essentially it was, was due, they made sure the person made it to the housing authority to renew that that uh voucher and at the same time provide assistance to them if they needed help going shopping to buy groceries or what have you.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

So this is the version of nuanced independence giving that you're talking about that there's both integration in the community through programs that are already running in the community, so they're not segregated, but there's also meaningful support when people need help filling out the forms or doing whatever. Susan, you were not originally in the disability space. You took over in 2016 as ED, is that right? But did you start working at Ladd before that, under David, you mentioned?

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

So tell me about that experience.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

It's funny because you would never guess from talking to David that he's this guy that pushes the limits, right? I mean, that is, in my opinion, kind of an inner radical who knows how the world should be and seeks to deliver that.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Thinks he knows.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

So, you know, my interview he's he's pretty buttoned up, pretty um professional. And I it lasted, I mean, it may have lasted over two hours. I was interviewing for the development director role. Okay. So we talked and talked, but we talked a lot about activism and advocacy. And you know, that in the development space, that's not those don't really live together typically. And so I left and I thought, oh my gosh, I said too much. I like that was I I probably um probably did, you know, not gonna get this job. I didn't, you know, I really couldn't read David because I I really had thought he was this conservative, buttoned-up guy. Um, but he I think was excited that I had an inclination to also try to uh really a social justice leaning. And that for him was a big part of the work. Um he was really committed to ensuring people had equal access to the community and are were valued. So for me, out of the gate, that was he really wanted to develop that within me. I mean, elevate the that mission of full community integration. And I think one of the things that I would be curious about is that when he would take me on tours, some of our uh folks that had been with us for a long time, you know, David would, I think it was Linda, we left and you said casually, I don't know if you took her out of you had taken folks out of Orient.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

And so part of the work that I mean, David had seen some of these horrific institutions. And I don't know, I can't imagine that experience. And um so I I don't know if you could share a little bit about that of what it was like to go to Orient, which was the state's largest institution, pull people out and work to get them in the community.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yeah, I want to know about that what it was like and also how what that means to pull somebody out.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, uh, and again, this was back in the uh let's see mid-80s. Um and Ohio was going through a transition, it had a lot, several institutions that where people with developmental disabilities lived, and to the point where there were thousands of people living in facilities at a particularly rural population. And again, they knew people with disabilities were there, but they really didn't want to see them in the community, so they put these institutions throughout. I think there were six or seven of them total. And with federal law that changed at that time, um uh came the mandate and and the expectation that people in institutions uh shouldn't be there.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Are you talking about the ADA or something else?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

No, essentially the ADA that became the ADA, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Uh and then Olmsted.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, yeah. And there were people like, I mean, Geraldo Rivera did an expose on on institutions in I think it was Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

New York.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

New York, okay. And so there are all all this information coming out of the atrocities that are happening and and the mistreatment that's happening in the institution, and that's what happens when you how house a group, a large group of people in isolation that nobody has access to. It's and and things can happen that shouldn't happen. And and that's why basically government entities, both on a federal level and on a state level, were mandated to okay, close your institutions. Um, so when I went to the previous nonprofit I worked at, we it had already brought a half a dozen or so people out of Orient, which was uh a very large institution just outside of Columbus, Ohio. And so instead of having thousands of people who have one location, you were trying to get smaller numbers, and and the number was pretty much like six to eight people living in a house, a group home in the community, which was better, but at the same time, still segregated, but it's still segregated, right? And when I got to the agency in that the previous agency I worked at, this was in 1981-82. I'd just gotten out of graduate school, and they were involved in a lawsuit here in Cincinnati. They were being sued by a neighborhood association because they wanted to put a group home in one of the more affluent uh neighborhoods, and they got sued. Fortunately, the suit wasn't successful, you know, and the agency won, and the people had, and basically it it said um they should be able to live anywhere they want, and you can't restrict the development of group homes in a community. And so that kind of laid the foundation for further development.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Did you ever go inside Orient? Did you actually physically set up?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Oh, yeah. Well, it was just a lot of people, a lot of people with disabilities, and and it was just it it in some in what in one sense it was just really overwhelming. You know, how are we going to serve these people who've always had you know lockdowns, they weren't free to engage in the community. Some of these people were really um, you know, they they weren't that disabled, okay? Yeah, and one once this one guy got out, he was like, you know, after being essentially locked up for years, and you're you're given all this freedom, you don't know what to do with it. But I can't count the number of weekends I got phone calls saying, you know, Jimmy's gone again, we don't know where he's at. It was important um that you experience that and understand where these people are coming from and still recognize essentially what I mentioned early, that these people have value, they have the right to be, and if they want to take off, you have to support that. And then it becomes an issue of safety, whether they're living in the six-person group home that the agency developed, or whether they're out in the community exploring the community.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

And I don't I I don't know this to be fact, but I don't know um of any organization that comes close to the longevity of our um day programs, non-facility-based day program. There was no even way to bill for it at the state because the state did not understand how this could exist. Day programs are what people typically have envisioned for people with developmental disabilities, where uh you know you go to a big open space, kind of lunch tables, there's a lot of crafting, or you know, you have a kind of a warehouse setting where maybe people are making gadgets and they get paid for every gadget, yes, um, that they make. So those were kind of the options at the time, as I understand it. And what Ladd did um before it took a long time for others to catch on, to be honest with you, was say, you know, what what does it look like to pick people up and go out, just like anybody? I mean, right, this is not no offense, this is not rocket science, but it was it was thought leadership, right? It was like David was thinking differently and um and said, no, we're not gonna do this. And the staff were bought in, and people got into vans, went out in small groups instead of big school buses to go, you know, to a Reds game, and people drove the conversation around what they wanted to do. But it was it was very interesting because even three or four years ago we were having issues because billing was going to require us to, they would only bill if you went to a a specific address. And we kept saying, but we don't have a specific address. We pick people up and then we go out. So this is the mileage we're billing. This the state was really struggling with that. Now these programs have started to pop up, which is actually really exciting because now it's people are starting to realize, oh, that you know, how do this how does a typical population do it? Um we don't all gather at the local cafeteria and then decide what we're gonna do, right? I pick up my buddy and we go to a movie. Well, that's the same model. So um, so that was a I think a very big program that is thriving today, and that's our community connections program. And that at the time was extremely innovative and has been for many, many years. Um, and we have started to see non-facility-based programming um proliferate in this community. But our how ours is 20-something years old? Yeah, community connections, yep, community connections, 20-something years old. Um, and that was all driven again by David's philosophies, so which is what's happening the typical population needs to um, Ladd needs to mirror what's happening in the typical population.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

It was really focused on older folks and connecting them to and allowing them and helping them experience a community more effectively. Um, and that was at first I had to convince the board that was the right thing to do here at Ladd. Okay. Um, so that was a task because their perspective of independence was different from what I was bringing to the table. They thought it was fine that the person lived at LAD, lived at Find a Way in Gire, again, an apartment building with 39 other people with disabilities, and then were picked up every day and went to a workshop to do the piecework that Susan mentioned with another, say, a hundred people who were at the workshop also with disabilities, work there for you know five to six hours, get back on the bus, go back to the apartment. Where's the community integration? Where's the independence? It was a different perspective of independence, and that so it was a it was uh uh uh interesting challenge.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Can you tell me about some of some of the milestone achievements that Ladd did over the years that you were there, David?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I think one of the biggest was a home ownership program. Somehow, I still remember how I was able to do this, but it happened. Um I convinced the board we needed to develop um a program that helped people with disabilities own their own home if they wanted to. It was a small number of people, people who were really functioning independently in the community, had long-term employment, had resources, um, and who had the desire to own their own place, either a condo or a house or something like that. The community, I would talk to other providers, they would look at me like, you're crazy. I mean, how can these people own a home? They can hardly take care of themselves. Again, that was the perspective of what they can own a home because they've had a job for 10 years, they're making money. There's there's uh purchase uh housing acquisition resources available again through HUD and Susan, before coming to Ladd was with the homeless population, their exposure to that. And that was to some extent helpful in developing this program of home ownership for people, and it really made a statement for the organization of what is important to them as an organization. Um so to me that was very significant. Then broadening the uh uh what was for lack of a better word, you know, the foster care program. Uh that was significant. Finding individuals in the community who wanted to have people with a disability living in their house, okay. Uh, and living with and that's you know, recreating or creating a family for that individual with somebody already living in the community. Um and are you still doing that today?

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Is that still a thing?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On that one, we instead of reinventing the wheel, there were other organizations who were only doing that. And they they essentially called it for understanding adult foster care. And so we, you know, uh basically uh acquired an agency who already had the structure for operations of adult foster care. And you know, that was another challenge for me of convincing the board uh that we needed to do this, you know, and they're saying, okay, what are we buying here? You know, because it people have their own, which was significant in itself because we were broadening our services without adding a facility-based program. We were using existing fit facilities via families who and and and people who wanted to support people in their home.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

It's very forward thing if you think about it, because like community like Uber, Airbnb, it's all that kind of community-based people like engaging themselves to like interact with the community.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Um and that this was the right thing to do financially not only programmatically and philosophically, but also from a business perspective.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

I want to talk about the initiatives that are happening at LADNOW and how they, you know, have evolved, right? But before that, you take this job as a development director at this organization, right? Yeah. And now you're executive director. Almost 10 years you've been executive director. So I almost wanted like on a personal tip, how have you changed since that day that you walked in the door?

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Right. Well, I mean, I it it definitely I mean, I don't think you'll talk to anybody that's that doesn't say leadership changes you. So, for example, um, if I did something he was not happy with, I would so David's not a big talker. Uh, but in general, there's there's not a lot of cooler talk with David. And so we would go, I'd be going doing my thing, and you know, he basically I had some guardrails and he let me go. And if I crossed those guardrails, if there was something he wasn't happy with, basically I would be called into his office and he would say, Don't do that again. And you know, I'm just like, there's gotta be a more diplomatic, you know, more of my tail off here, David. There's gotta be a better way to you know, call me to test. But now I realize clarity is one of the core tenets of leadership. And so little things like that, where that you know I did not understand, or even venture to say did not like, now it's like the dream of every parent, right? The kid comes back and says, I get it now, right? They you find the other thing that's interesting is uh over the last 10 years, and I am really proud of this as an agency. What David again, the first day, my first day on the job, he sat me down and he like slapped some papers in front of me and said, read this, and left the room. I was like, what have I got myself into? And it was around the philosophy. It was called social role valorization, but it was the philosophy of valuing all people and also what happens when you don't, which is what was happening in Willowbrook, which is the institution that changed, you know, the expose that changed everything for people, um, what was happening in Orient. I mean, it was that was how he started. And to think about, so you know, if you take a look at, say, the Lad Look, which is our publication, we have extremely high standards for all photography for our folks. Now, this is all born out of my time with David. So, for example, I was tasked with doing the website, and I reached out to a website designer and I said, Hey, can you give me a few mock-ups? You know, give me some options. They all looked like preschool um websites, like big blocks, big bright colors, and uh, you know, big lettering and something that maybe uh would happen in for a preschool. And so I just called the person and I said, You you know we serve adults, don't you? And she she's like, Oh, absolutely. But you know, she didn't know what I was getting at. So it really reinforced kind of David's narrative that we have an uphill battle to ensure our folks are are um valued and included. And uh and you can see that it is evidenced in in all of the materials we put out. The only way we will publish a photo of somebody looking childlike, which we all do as adults, is that it is an integrated photo where everybody is like jumping for joy. Um, not because we don't all um experience childlike moments, but because I have been so sensitized to the stereotypes that have been weaponized to devalue people's input and um what they have to say and the value they have in the community. I just evolved as I would say an activist, as understanding, you know, around disability and civil rights. I think that those years that I worked under David really have informed this next 10. The transformation in the community has been incredible in terms of understanding developmental disability and inclusion and the value our folks bring. There's just so much less resistance to that message. And you know, when David started, it was that was not the case. Um, so any role that that we have played in breaking down those barriers, I mean, I think we should all be proud. So we ask a lot of our boards, and uh, you know, joining the bat lad board is not for the faint of heart. You don't you can't phone it in. So when you think about doing these services and how messy our lives are, and then we're supporting 920 people's lives, like it is hard work. I'll give you a quick example. We had somebody walk home from the bus and they were um walking to Ladd, who who lived at Ladd, and he got mugged. And so he got mugged, uh, he turned over his wallet, he was not injured, and he uh came back to Ladd, and obviously the police recalled everything that you would expect to have happened happened. And his mother came the next day and threw all his stuff in trash bags and took him away and said, you know, he was not safe.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

And um, and that he went into a facility, and he was 22 at the time, and he was a really independent guy. Um, and I just remember thinking, like, this has got to be really hard for David. Like, how do you sort that out? You're here to be of service. And the fear and this the love that that mother had, right? You you have to you have to respect it at the same time. Where lad falls philosophically is people have those stories, right? And the the key is you equip, if you have a typical child, you essentially say, Don't fight back.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

I mean your wallet. That's life. And yeah, and he he did that. And it's life, and it's hard and it's scary, and it's intimidating. Um, and we you can't disregard how difficult that is. At the same time, when you you have the beliefs that we have, um, you take some hits too. It's hard.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah. Well, the the one thing I want to say, you think, you know, why did that can't that mother understand that a facility isn't the answer? Okay. But they you have to have that the compassion and the understanding and the respect for families, which is something we also supported and have supported. Many times they're doing it out of desperation, and you have to respect that. Um and then you have to find a way to figure out how that person can still stay in the community and still feel safe, and then it's a matter of convincing uh the families and and the community that this is the right thing to do. Susan really she doesn't take no for an answer. She she finds other ways to convince people, you know. The reason that she was so successful as a development director is she'd go into somebody and ask for you know $100,000, and they said no, and she's well okay. And then she'd continue to talk, and by the time she left, she'd probably get twice as much that because of her powers of persuasion, and uh, and that element was really needed, not only for the operations, but also in interactions with families. Because you know, the staff was probably the easiest group to convince of the importance of people being integrated with disabilities. Um the hard part was parents, and and again, it goes back to the perspective perspective of how people see with this, how people see people with disabilities as childlike, and they're not. They're adults. Treat them like the adults to the extent that you can, um, and you know structure that and help them make the choices. Um and you you it's a constant, it was a constant uh battle for that.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Yeah, I think again, David taught me and really effectively that the one of the lenses that I use for good or bad is what would I want? What kind of life do I want, and how do I ensure that everyone has equal access to that? Just because I want it doesn't mean everybody wants it. Um, some people truly are you know recluses. That said, you know, how do we create the space for learning? I grew up in Washington, D.C. DC is designed to confuse invading armies. It's a circular grid. What that means is if you miss your turn, somehow you're still on the same street but going the wrong direction. And what I learned from getting lost, right? Like, you know, I'm 17, I'm, you know, lapping doing some traffic circle like 20 times. I'm, you know, yelling at myself in the car, right? And I'm running out of gas and I'm like five minutes from the house, but I still can't find it. Um, and how like all of those, all the life skills you develop in those moments, right? How do you self-soothe? How do you stay calm? How do you find a safe person to inquire for directions? How do you, you know, what what does your brain need, right? So I need landmarks. And we deny that to people. We absolutely deny those experiences to people. You get lost, you get a staff person. You screw something up, you get a staff person. There is not the dignity of risk. Now, let me qualify that. If I am driving around in a war-torn city, I should probably have a staff person, right? Uh so there is this spectrum of safety that is critical. But how do you create opportunities to learn like all human beings learn? And that to me is the dignity of risk. The solution is not to take somebody's ability to keep trying and keep learning. The goal is to how do you create these the safest possible space to have those experiences, to fail, to try again? And the goal then is: can technology be part of the solution? Can we create safe spaces where people have to figure things out? But say they are, you know, heading towards a highway, we get notified and make sure, yeah, we're gonna do intervene. So you've got to create parameters just like anything in life, and that has to be customized. But how do we do that? And can technology help facilitate that happening for a lot of people? And what I would argue is not only does then do you have the dignity of risk, but you have people um surpass, exceed, or at least meet developmental goals that perhaps they never would have, just like me developing as a teenager and a young adult on how to manage uh directions and finding things prior to GPS. Thank God for GPS. But that's that's for me, right? Technology that allowed independence.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

Um we're gonna just uh for an overview, like I know you guys are in development on facilities right now. Like so, can you tell us about the scope of that or what you're actually working on?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

So again, it the idea of how do you um how do you fully integrate into the community? I don't know uh how David would feel about this term, but I I say we are the space where practicality and dreams converge. So what that means is would it be ideal that everybody had their own condo, their own home, their own apartment, and we are delivering support, you know, and we're five minutes away, we're you know, or we're a neighbor, and you know, we are available as needed. There would be that would be perfect. And all of us want that, right? Do we all want to be able to afford to be in the best school districts or the best district with the services for a child? Absolutely. And we have to make really tough choices. We do we the entire community is not available to us at all times. So, um, so what can we do to ensure the furthest degree of community integration? And equal opportunity and also keep the doors open and lights on. And so what we we did assessments and uh realized that at three to four people we could keep the lights on and keep people completely in the community. So it's what we found is that efficiencies happened uh at 12 people. Well, we're that's that's not an acceptable number. That doesn't work. But what if communities could house 12 people in separate locations and staff could be in that particular community, get to know that community and be able to be deployed as needed in that community? So that's really what drove it was this idea of community integration and then long-term sustainability. We've been around 50 years. We have served people for 50 years. Um, and we want to be around for the next 50. So, what does that balance look like? And that is what where the structure came from is the idea of could we deploy people and have them folks living in their own houses? They do have roommates, no more than three, and um three to four uh is uh the max of will and will serve anybody in a house. And um, and then we have three houses in a community. So we started in Blue Ash, uh, moved to Anderson, and the other key piece of we look for communities that would I say have sidewalks that lead somewhere because that's freedom. Our folks don't drive. So freedom is sidewalks that lead somewhere, so it cannot be sidewalks that um you know have a have a dead end and have nothing to do. We're not gonna buy a house on you know 50 acres in the middle of nowhere where there is no bus route. It's just not gonna happen. So one of the reasons that say that find a way apartment building, which does have 39 units, is so successful, is because it's everything's walkable. You put that apartment, you know, in uh somewhere out by IKEA, um, you know, there there's nothing to do.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

They could get meatballs, I mean.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

They could get meatballs, yes. They could walk across a three-mile parking lot and then go get meatballs. And so there is um, and I'm I'm using IKEA because IKEA typically, right, it's like on the outside.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

Yeah, it's in a warehouse district where there's nothing going on. There's just tumbleweeds and meatballs.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

And tumbleweed and the Swedish meatballs. So um that has remained a successful is an idea, would we build that again today? No. But is it a meaningful experience and does it translate to full community integration? But but that's really um so that's what drives smart living systems. It's not technology. We're not we didn't set out uh, we don't know anything about technology. We backed into it because there was a need, and we were driven by this belief of community integration and the dignity of risk. It was about the people, it has always been about the people, and the technology is like, okay, well, how do we provide this?

SPEAKER_03 47:14

The smart living systems and smart homes developed and piloted by LAD are fast becoming new technological benchmarks for disability organizations around the world, which is super exciting. Since 2020, um, when they launched the smart living systems, people using LAD's tech enabled supports have safely decreased staffing by 65% while increasing their independence. Also, LAD was honored at the United Nations for this work, and they're currently building more smart homes to serve more people while creating systems that one day can be licensed and replicated around the world. If you want to find out more, check out the articles about smart living systems on our website, which is www.Ladd Inc., that's L-A-D-D-I-N-C, dot org.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

The other thing I'd like to add is that Ladd has always had, and although I never knew Peggy Geyer and her posse, so to speak, of influential people in Cincinnati, they always had a knack for location. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that she had prominent people in the community who who leaders of the community. And Victory Parkway, you have to look at where Victory Parkway is located. It's right next to Xavier. When we began this discussion, talked about the basketball net. You know, uh, let's um put a basketball court up in the parking lot. And um my reaction to that is we have a gym a half a block away. Why do we need a basketball net here when people can go down there?

SPEAKER_02 48:56

And I believe that was the exact sentence he uttered to me, and no more. And then I just walked out of his office.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

It's probably happened a half a dozen times over my 24 years here. And I said, no, community center, or find another community center. If the person lived over in Hyde Park, go to the Y or something, you know, um, or up in Blue Ash.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

But see, I thought I I had a I had a really unique, meaningful idea, right? This is like the 30th time David's heard it.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

And so, yeah, and and the same thing applies with Find a Way in Oakley. I mean, it it's just around the corner from a vibrant retail business area that people can easily talk to. And and the they got the location right. The unique thing now is that if somebody wanted to replicate that model, they couldn't do it. Because not only has society has changed as to what is available to the funding has changed so that only smaller facilities can be developed. That revenue that's out there, you can't get a 40-unit development uh created with HUD money anymore.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Location, location, location message was clear as day to me because I could see it in action, how critical it was, which is why where we build is it's very, very strategic. And we will not build a one-off house in the middle, we just won't do it in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah. Or build houses with that are like you know, three four-person units uh in a row.

SPEAKER_03 50:30

Right. It's all about the community integration, the location, right, and and the opportunity, you know, to be independent. So just as we wrap up, I just want to ask you both like what what is your vision like for now the next 50 years? What do you want to do? What do you want to accomplish? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Well, I'd I'd first of all I'd like to live for another 25 years. That would be my first priority.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Um you're well on your way. I don't think, I mean, this is not this is sound, but David has in retirement become a personal trainer. So he is the most in-shape 70, how old 70?

SPEAKER_00 51:11

I'm 76.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

76-year-old you will ever meet.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

And and but beyond that, you know, I mean, I the next 50 years for Ladd, uh, who knows? Um, the the this technology aspect of LAD is I I I couldn't deal with it. Uh the technology, and Susan, she's willing to take on just about anything. I don't know what's next, but whatever it's going to be, um, it's going to provide opportunities for people with disabilities in a unique way that's never been done before. And that's, you know, the the technology piece of it is I'm just amazed at that.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

What do the next 50 years hold? I think the first thing is really for me, it's how do you um protect the philosophy by which Ladd was founded? So just because we have made all this progress, our community has been transformed. And Ladd is one of, and I'm just gonna shout out the his previous um uh nonprofit he worked at is Envision, and we are great partners with Envision. I love the folks there, we work really well together, and they do some incredible work. So I think the future is a couple things. The future is really meaningful partnerships, is the folks that really give a damn are coming together as you have all of this upheaval around not just the disability work, but across the board. How do we think about truly empowering people? What does that look like? And um and keep holding on to our lane, which is community integration. Now, I will tell you, there are families and there are people that um that I think need so much support that that's a huge challenge. And so, and we have partners that do an incredible job in that work, in that space. So to me, the the first thing is meaningful partnerships is how do we work together to solve these challenges? Two, it's to really double down on our belief that people should have equal opportunity to access the community. People are empirically safer in the community. It's counterintuitive. You think if you tuck somebody away, they're safer. And they might be safer for the first couple months, but the second there's a bad actor behind doors, right, that can go to hell really quickly. If you have different eyes on, right, somebody's like, oh, they're normally at the grocery store or they're not. Hey, I'm just gonna check in on them. Or, hey, this person that I typically see that's put together was disheveled today. I'm gonna check in on them. You those that create um less safety violations and really uh creates, I think, a happier, more thriving individual. So doubling down on that, there is a lot around that conversation of what that looks like on a federal level, on a state level. So just because we made all this progress doesn't mean we can't lose ground. Doesn't mean that um things can go backwards. So keep becoming a platform for the people we support for their own voices, not mine, not David's. That's another thing that David taught me, I think unequivocally. This isn't about us. This is about our folks having a platform to share their stories. And that's what this is about. And then incorporating technology, AI, what I am most excited about with AI and and uh is the ability to anticipate behaviors. So imagine, right, you are somebody on the autism spectrum and you are take, you know what, take uh disability out of it. Let's say you yourself are triggered, right? You're a parent, and maybe um that you have moments that you're like, hey, you know, I could have said that a little bit better, right? If you had technology that told you you were triggered, and then you had steps to take to um decompress, like how how huge would that be, right? So let's say AI could identify um with really a month's worth of data, um, your heart rate increases, XYZ happens, and prior to, and if these all these if these three behaviors or uh things are monitored to have happened, you are 90% likely to have a behavior issue, right? Whether that is yelling at your kids or you know, whatever that is. Um so can you imagine for somebody who is nonverbal to be able to have that data about themselves and the people that love them to have that data? Okay, all three of these behaviors just happened in sequence. You get an alert that somebody is about to, you know, punch a hole in the wall, right? That person suddenly who's nonverbal has a voice. They have a voice, but it's told through uh you know what their body is doing versus what um their voice is saying. So for me, that is so exciting. And in the next 10 years, giving people who don't have a voice a voice by letting the world know what is going on with them. Well, what would that mean for a workspace for somebody? And could they contribute and be you know, pay taxes and be part of the community if they knew what that trigger was? So those that's what I'm most excited about. People tell me all the time, well, technology is not for my person because they have you know more unique needs. And I think to myself, to be honest, that's the space where technology is the most the more unique your needs, the more adaptive the AI can be and deliver something that would be missed by just regular, degular um technology.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

That's just listening to everyone the same.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Like that's the adaptiveness of AI that's and then if you can't verbalize what's going on with you, but then AI can. You've there's a voice, you have a voice. And I don't know how that's going to manifest, but that is what I'm most excited about is getting to hear um getting to connect with people that thus far have struggled to get.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

This is an amazing place for us to rap because we're gonna rap other. I I mean I could talk to you guys for three more hours. This is amazing. And I'm sure we're gonna revisit Susan the Smart Living Smart Home next year when we're a little more built up. But thank you so much for both showing up. There's so much more to this.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

I'm just sitting here thinking, you know, about what Susan just said. And uh the AI, you you constantly have to be evaluating why you're doing it and how you do it with what you're learning in the technology homes and saying, okay, can we integrate that and increase their level of independence, even though they're 24-7 supervision? If there's aspects of it that can be adapted, let's do it. And and let's bring that to the surface and share it with other people. And and that's what I would expect, and uh what I'm pretty confident will occur with Susan.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

This is the future, people. This is the future. And this is gonna be a really um informative and I think helpful episode for people to listen to in context with all the other oral history interviews we're doing. So thank you so much to both of you. I appreciate your work so deeply. It's so meaningful to me personally as a person who is neurodivergent and on the autism spectrum. It's so meaningful to me to hear about um the philosophies that have informed the work at LADS. So thank you both for your service. Honestly, and I think the world wants to thank you for your service, but I'll thank you on behalf of everybody for your service. I really do appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

Memories, how we learn the when and why, listen with a disability, the story of us, the story of me. Never fade away, never fade away.